The True Color Ferdinand Marcos

[Dimmu Borgir]

first and foremost lets make it clear..

Lets' stick to the issue? Can't you remember?
 
ikaw yung nagdala ng issue dito about CIA.. I don't know kung anong basis mo dito? Im just answering it by posting articles coming from different sources to counter your claim..

Im not even used my personal opinion for doing that because like you, i dont have a personal knowledge about it. But at least it my capacity, im relying not just on one book or article to defend my point..

Just what I've thought your naivete continues to blur your insights. Would you really think that the CIA would really admit all the treacherous acts that they had done against Marcos? Plastikan lang yan sir, pulitika ika nga. The stated "unconfirmed" info you mentioned below only shows the deception of the Americans against Marcos.

Personal opinion, for me, is not agreeable since we are not the likes of Ongpin or Ver that have personal knowledge about Marcos. I think
it is not proper to used personal opinion here since we are talking about Marcos not about ourselves..
 
But as you see, I posted also some interview of Mr. Ongpin about Marcos about what happened during the last days of Marcos in malacañang.

In my third reasoning, can't you see the word "rumored" ?

It's the same like CIA who killed Marcos, its all about rumors but if you have the knowledge, share it to me..

Ongpin explanation is  better than you saying CIA wants Cory to be the best alternative in promoting US interests here in country..

I dont know if it's just personal opinion or at least you have a knowledge to support that claim...

[Dimmu Borgir]

The truth is I dont' care about who killed Marcos..

As long as you can prove your claim.. Then go on..

Do you have personal knowledge about what are you posting?

Or just analyzing and using your own conclusion?

some of what you have said are so far fetched. In anycase, I will just agree to disagree with you.

if that's the case, we are the same...

Dimmu.. some of what you have said are so far fetched. In anycase, I will just agree to disagree with you.

By the way, if you really believed that the CIA is really under the thumbs of the POTUS and the POTUS a 4 year term ordinary politician knows and briefed about everything you might be in for some surprise.

It's the old case of not letting the right hand know, what the left hand is doing.

In some circles, it is believed that the CIA was also involved in the assasination of president JFK, along with the mossad.

Apparently he was pissed off about them doing deals, making decisions and sanctioning assasinations without his approval.

JFK hated that organisation, and was even toying with the notion of disbanding it. Look where it has landed him.

Marcos, along with most lesser devolped country leaders are pawns to these guys. Same thing is happening now.

If Cory presidency was not sanctioned by the US, I can tell you it would not last a week.

Anyway carry on.

[yummyyana23]

Lets' stick to the issue? Can't you remember?
 
ikaw yung nagdala ng issue dito about CIA.. I don't know kung anong basis mo dito? Im just answering it by posting articles coming from different sources to counter your claim..

Im not even used my personal opinion for doing that because like you, i dont have a personal knowledge about it. But at least it my capacity, im relying not just on one book or article to defend my point..



Personal opinion, for me, is not agreeable since we are not the likes of Ongpin or Ver that have personal knowledge about Marcos. I think
it is not proper to used personal opinion here since we are talking about Marcos not about ourselves..
 
But as you see, I posted also some interview of Mr. Ongpin about Marcos about what happened during the last days of Marcos in malacañang.

In my third reasoning, can't you see the word "rumored" ?

It's the same like CIA who killed Marcos, its all about rumors but if you have the knowledge, share it to me..

Ongpin explanation is  better than you  saying CIA wants Cory to be the best alternative in promoting US interests here in country..

I dont know if it's just personal opinion or at least you have a knowledge to support that claim...



That's too Lame and what a shame. You posted leaked articles from wikileaks without even realizing that such leaked files tells a lot of CIA's misadventures from countries like us. Sana nilubos lubos mo na yung pag lift mo ng info dun sa initial posting mo about Marcos from Wikileaks para mabasa mo yung pinag-gagawa nila even before the Marcos era.

The massive infos you've posted and lifted from different sources doesn't impress me, does it prove a point?

You're too proud of Ongpin's interview? What if the guy's a turncoat? Maligning his former boss because he knew very well that no matter how much he demonizes Makoy, the dead dictator can't drag his crony right from his resting place in Ilocos.

Read more sir! I advise pati yung book ni Marcos about Democratic Revolution and the last two books that I asked you to consider.

Sige Sir Maya Po ulit.. I'm cooking lunch..don't wanna spoil it.

[Dimmu Borgir]

I really don't care about CIA. Ikaw nga nagbibigay ng personal opinion mo about CIA killing Marcos, hindi ba ako pwedeng magbigay ng explanation bakit di ako naniniwala sa sinabi mo? It's so happened na nagbanggit ka about CIA, kung di ka naman nagbanggit di ko naman sasagutin.. Can't u get the point?

I've posted article to show na di ko naman personal idea lang ang mga sinasabi, di ako nagpost para iimpress ka.. Sabi ko nga di ako gumagamit ng personal idea sa argumento ko.. Di ako gumagawa ng mga kwento.

Mahirap makipagdebate sa taong personal opinion ang gamit.. Gumagawa ka ng lang sarili mong conclusion.. And i must admit, di ako mananalo sayo...

"Sabi nga ng teacher ko, lahat tayo ay tama sa sariling opinyon natin so paano ko sasabihing mali ka eh puro opinion lang ang ginagamit mo.."



US wants Cory to replace Marcos..

CIA removing Marcos from Office, show any proof?

[Dimmu Borgir]

Nagset pala ang US ng 5 conditions para manatili si marcos. Does it matter?

What's maligning here? Alam naman natin na America's Boy si Marcos, di ba sa Hawaii nga siya namatay.. Anong masama sa sinabi ni Ongpin? Ikaw lang ata ang namalign dito kasi contradicting ito sa ginawa mong kwento na gustong "iover throw ng US si marcos.. What the heck.................

Di ko maiwasang mapa smile... hehehehehe

 

You're too proud of Ongpin's interview? What if the guy's a turncoat? Maligning his former boss because he knew very well that no matter how much he demonizes Makoy, the dead dictator can't drag his crony right from his resting place in Ilocos.

[marmaim]

i agree. what the heck...!!???
gulo ng quotes at opinions. di ko na gets who is saying what about what was said by whom.
pasensya na po. slow lang.

[yummyyana23]

I really don't care about CIA. Ikaw nga nagbibigay ng personal opinion mo about CIA killing Marcos, hindi ba ako pwedeng magbigay ng explanation bakit di ako naniniwala sa sinabi mo? It's so happened na nagbanggit ka about CIA, kung di ka naman nagbanggit di ko naman sasagutin.. Can't u get the point?

Sheesh, hindi po ako si Marcos sir na pagbabawalan ka sa mga post mo dito sir, i'm just trying to refute your posts about your claims on Marcos pertaining with your use of wikileaks leaked infos. Kaya nga ang sabi ko, basahin mo yung books ni Cecilio Arillo - A Country Imperiled and Greed and Betrayal. These are books published in the US. It discusses all the queries that we've been debating here. CIA? you lifted posts from wikileaks right? Hindi mo ba alam kung san nahack ni Julian Assange yung mga files na yan? Hindi po ba sa CIA kaya nga katakot takot na kaso at pananakot ang kinakaharap ngayon ni Assange (Founder ng Wikileaks) from the US.



I've posted article to show na di ko naman personal idea lang ang mga sinasabi, di ako nagpost para iimpress ka.. Sabi ko nga di ako gumagamit ng personal idea sa argumento ko.. Di ako gumagawa ng mga kwento.

That's why next time if you'll be posting, substantiate it with analysis. Whether or not its an opinion or not, try analyzing the motives and the logic behind the articles your posting before you howl to the entire world na ginagawa mo lang yun para sa mga darating na henerasyon. Right? kasi pag ganun mas lalo lang na nadi-distort ang kasaysayan. Sir Dimmu Borgir, this just a clash of ideas, wag ka sanang mapikon, i'm an avid student of history and politics, kahit babae ako, i'm very much open to be enlightened. Basagan lang po ng teorya ika nga.

Mahirap makipagdebate sa taong personal opinion ang gamit.. Gumagawa ka ng lang sarili mong conclusion.. And i must admit, di ako mananalo sayo...

"Sabi nga ng teacher ko, lahat tayo ay tama sa sariling opinyon natin so paano ko sasabihing mali ka eh puro opinion lang ang ginagamit mo.."


My thoughts may border on opinions and facts, but you have given me your wikileaks post as my initial point of reference from there i just substantiate it sir. Why is this a contest? We're just debating sir, in any debate wala naman nananalo. Like what I've said it's just a pure clash of ideas.


US wants Cory to replace Marcos..

CIA removing Marcos from Office, show any proof?

I don't know if you have a thick skull or what, but anyways, i'm not in the habit of posting entire articles and not substantiating it but here perhaps these links will do, have the pleasure too of "analyzing" them for cheese sake.



http://www.bibliotecapleyades.net/sociopolitica/secretgoldtreaty/trilat_appendix1.htm

http://www.swans.com/library/art17/barker79.html

tapos pakibasa na rin Stanley Karnow's "In our image, America's Empire in the Philippines" maliliwanagan ka Sir. 

And then para makabasa ka rin ng mga "intelligence operations-related articles" here visit this sir para di puro wikileaks lang:

http://www.larouchepub.com/eiw/public/1986/eirv13n29-19860725/index.html

And one last thing, kindly ask your teacher - if ever all opinions are indeed correct. what separates it from the wrong ones? Tell your teacher too that  as Harlan Ellison said [Eveyone's]".. not entitled to your opinion. [Everyone's] .. entitled to [an] informed opinion. No one is entitled to be ignorant.”  -(inside brackets are mine, i substituted the word "You")

 

[Dimmu Borgir]

Sige na ate, di na ako makikipagtalo sayo... Sayang yung article mo na niresearch mo di ko na binasa..

Nawala na yung gana kong makipagdebate sayo nung mapatawa mo ako.. Imagination na kasi ang ginagamit mo pati si Ongpin nagawan mo na ng kwentong minamalign si Marcos..

Lawak ng imagination mo ate. .......

 

hehehehehe..

PS.. High Blood ka ata kay Assange pero ito talaga ang source nyan "Gale Encyclopedia of Biography: Ferdinand Marcos".

Yung iba dito, Britannica Concise Encyclopedia,
Oxford Dictionary of Political Biography,
and Columbia Encyclopedia" .. Konting konti lang dyan ang wikileaks..

 


 

[Dimmu Borgir]

You’re entitled to your own opinions but you’re not entitled to your own facts.

Explanation: It means that facts are supported by evidence and agreed upon by the mass population. Opinions obviously don't require evidence. A person does not have to believe humans are the cause of global warming, but it is a fact that global warming is in large part caused by human-related activity.

Example: Therefore, it is a fact that Marcos stole billion of pesos from us, that he was a corrupt politician but it was your opinion that CIA killed Marcos..


And one last thing, kindly ask your teacher - if ever all opinions are indeed correct. what separates it from the wrong ones? Tell your teacher too that  as Harlan Ellison said [Eveyone's]".. not entitled to your opinion. [Everyone's] .. entitled to [an] informed opinion. No one is entitled to be ignorant.”

[yummyyana23]

Example: Therefore, it is a fact that Marcos stole billion of pesos from us, that he was a corrupt politician but it was your opinion that CIA killed Marcos..

You really have a thick skull, i didn't infer that Makoy was killed by the CIA, what i was explaining that the downfall of Marcos was caused by the CIA.

And stop defining terms for it doesn't even build your case. Ni hindi ka nga maka-build ng tamang argumento eh..always hiding behind the bush..You celebrate for using  "Gale Encyclopedia of Biography: Ferdinand Marcos", Britannica Concise Encyclopedia,Oxford Dictionary of Political Biography,
and Columbia Encyclopedia" .. and konting wikileaks.. ok sige pakilagyan mo nga ng konteksto sir Dimmu Borgir.



Explanation: It means that facts are supported by evidence and agreed upon by the mass population. Opinions obviously don't require evidence. A person does not have to believe humans are the cause of global warming, but it is a fact that global warming is in large part caused by human-related activity.

Oh thanks for interpreting Harlan Ellison's quote, kung maintindihan nya interpretation mo, sasabihin nya nakakabastos at nakakabaog ang pamamaraan ng interpretasyon mo ng mga sinabi nya. 
OMG..tsk tsk


And Dimmu Borgir a bigot doesn't have the right to claim it's his noble right to enlighten the world if his thoughts are more blind than his eyes could see!

[Dimmu Borgir]

typo error ate.. downfall pala hindi killed...

tigas din ng ulo mo. pinagpipilitan mo ang opinyon mong mali...

Dun tayo sa main topic, ano bang mali dun at nagagalit ka. Kesehodang kahit kanino pa yan galing eh facts naman, anong masama dun?

Wag ka lang gagamit ng imagination saka sarili mong kwento para naman may pinupuntahan ang usapan natin.

Ano bang pinupublish ng wikileaks in the first place?

di ba mga sensitive, classified articles..

ngayun meron ba silang pinublish na auto biography ng isang tao?

This is facts, bakit ito ipapublish ng wikileaks in the first place?

And finally this is not my personal thoughts.. Sabi ko nga di ako gumagawa ng kwento katulad mo...

You’re entitled to your own opinions but you’re not entitled to your own facts.

Oh thanks for interpreting Harlan Ellison's quote

Hindi yan interpretation nung qoutes ni Harlan. Sagot ko lang yan dito... parang di ka ata nakakarelate sa mga post ko...

And one last thing, kindly ask your teacher - if ever all opinions are indeed correct. what separates it from the wrong ones?

Kaya nga nasabi kong facts vs opinion ang usapan nating ito...

and ur the winner based on my belief that tama tayo sa lahat ng opinyon natin pero pag facts na, magtatalo tayo
ulit..




 

[charliehouse]

We should refrain from being a troll while debating or having our ideas refuted by someone. Kay ganda na ng palitan tapos maiuuwi lang sa troll, spam at emoticons? *sigh* a bit disappointed though.

[fayt]

We should refrain from being a troll while debating or having our ideas refuted by someone. Kay ganda na ng palitan tapos maiuuwi lang sa troll, spam at emoticons? *sigh* a bit disappointed though.

+1

ganda ng palitan ng facts between [user]yummyyana[/user] at [user] Dimmu Borgir[/user].. Kala ko magpapatuloy pa ang palitan ng argument but it seems the other end already raised a white flag.

[yummyyana23]

typo error ate.. downfall pala hindi killed...

Alright apology accepted..

tigas din ng ulo mo. pinagpipilitan mo ang opinyon mong mali...


What's wrong with my insights? You continued posting articles without even substantiating it with analysis.

Dun tayo sa main topic, ano bang mali dun at nagagalit ka. Kesehodang kahit kanino pa yan galing eh facts naman, anong masama dun?


I'm not the one going off-topic. I was refuting your arguments one by one. Wala ka pa ngang nasalag ni isa eh. Far out idea lagi.


Wag ka lang gagamit ng imagination saka sarili mong kwento para naman may pinupuntahan ang usapan natin.

Why fear imagination in the first place, di ka ba sentient being? As far as I know, para maging maayos ang pag-aanalysis sa logic pumapasok ang imagination.

Allow me to educate and enlighten you sir, for i really don't have any idea what you have been sniffing nowadays especially during your logic class (if ever you have taken one)

In Logic di po ba, the first step in developing our thoughts or how our mind works is for you to have a simple apprehension of things in that manner we use our senses and we imagine. The outcome out of what we have abstracted from our "imagination" is we develop IDEAS. Second the moment we have an idea, we try to test those ideas either we denote or connote, then we have a JUDGMENT Sir Dimmu Borgir, afterwards that leads to analysis to prove or disprove the idea..this is what we call "REASONING". And the debated issues would always be borne from "Inferences".

Alriiiiiiigt Sirs and Madame, forgive me for straying a bit from the main issue but it seems the thread starter has a lot to answer in terms of his "Reasoning Prowess" Sige balik tayo..

First I won't apologize sabi ko nga if my arguments borders from facts or opinions why? Kasi yung thread starter using "encyclopedias" and "wikileaks" as his sources can not even muster or substantiate such articles using his own analysis.

I just responded based on the lack of judgement of the thread starter. To claim that he wants to inform everyone borders misinforming. The writers of the encyclopedia would always have biased against the "bad rulers" of this world. This practice has been enduring since the primacy of Western Media and Propaganda has always been the main tool of discrediting leaders hated and targeted by the west as stated in the book "Propaganda and Persuasion" by Jowett and O'Donnell.

So again, although I'm not questioning the facts rendered by Dimmu Borgi's sources but how would he substantiate it with reasoning? Ni hindi nga maipaliwanag ang power dynamics between the Philippines and the US. Especially US covert ops. I have presented my sources. I actually asked Sir Dimmu Borgi to read books that will be helpful in his quest of truly informing everyone and just to check the validity of those facts that he sourced from encyclopedias.
   

Ano bang pinupublish ng wikileaks in the first place?

di ba mga sensitive, classified articles..

ngayun meron ba silang pinublish na auto biography ng isang tao?
This is facts, bakit ito ipapublish ng wikileaks in the first place?



Indeed correct, but as I have asked way back, were you able to read on CIA's involvement in our country for the last century until the Marcos ouster except the one that you posted.

I don't care whatever motives Mr.Assange had for continuing leaking infos, whether it's for personal gratification, change the global order of things, money, blackmailing, misinforming or just the noble deed of letting all of us know the secrets of our planet

But I'm pretty sure, kahit hindi inilabas ni Assange yan, may mga authors/scholars/researchers and pundits na naglabas ng kanya kanyang alam tungkol sa US-CIA involvement in Marcos ouster. I posted yesterday links which everyone can visit. Nandun din sir Dimmu yung sagot sa tanong mo na kung true or false ba na ang nasa likod sa pagpapatalsik kay Marcos ay mga kano. It's just a matter of using your own analysis.

But instead of crystallizing our debate here, you just ignored the chance of an informed debate. Your main argument was always to attack me that i'm just giving mere opinions.

You said your teacher prize the preciousness of opinions greatly? Why broke her golden rule about opinions. You could simply trash opinions but hopefully not an informed one. Yun ang context at substance ng quote ni Harlan Ellison.

That's my way of driving my argument home. Gamit nga tayo ng gamit ng facts pero how are we going to put a great weight on it kung hindi maayos sa reasoning.


And finally this is not my personal thoughts.. Sabi ko nga di ako gumagawa ng kwento katulad mo...

Storytelling? If that is tantamount to insights and well informed opinion. I'll take it as a compliment sir Dimmu Borgir. But if just facts lifted from biased sources and  that won't even hold water in arguments, please spare me. Shame on this act.

Kaya nga nasabi kong facts vs opinion ang usapan nating ito...
Let just allow the other forumers to decide on this..
 
and ur the winner based on my belief that tama tayo sa lahat ng opinyon natin pero pag facts na, magtatalo tayo
ulit..

Naaaaah.. whether it's a fact or opinion, it all boils from the idea of persuasion, judgment and reasoning. I rest my case.

Sir Charliehouse, pardon us ni Dimmu Borgir kung ganito kinahitnan ng debate. He's a worthy forumer here. Di naman din trolling or spamming, kasi everything is connected naman sa pinaguusapan, lumilihis lang minsan pero manageable naman po.

Speaking of emoticons, I pasensya na poh. Very animated lang ako talaga. Di naman kami nag-aaway or nagmumurahan ni Sir Dimmu Borgir. I believe he's just being competitive, kainitan ng debate ika nga.

Nothing to be worried about.

Thanks sa mga nagbasa at nagparticipate (Sir Fayt, Sir Primus, Ms. XXXholic  Rai, atbp.) ng palitan namin ni Sir Dimmu Borgir. Sa sunod ulit kung meron pa. hahaha!

Sir Dimmu Borgir peace tayo ha? Aaminin ko umiiral lang pagiging tibak ko. But I'm not taking it against anyone here kung may galit kayo sa mga Aktibista,  basagan lang ng teorya yan.    hihihihi

[marmaim]

sa totoo lang po hirap akong sundan at intindihin ang mga naganap na palitan nina yummy at dimmu.
ano bang facts ang pinaguusapan ninyo about marcos? sa pagkakaintindi ko kasi, halos bawat aspeto ng buhay ni marcos ay puno ng kuwestiyon at spekulasyon. daming haka-haka at opinyon sa tunay na nangyari nung nakulong sya, nung naging abogado, nung panahon ng hapon, etc.
sa akin kasi, ang relevant or important facts o tiyak lang kay marcos ay iilang bagay lang tulad ng sya ay pilipino, naging senador, naging presidente, napilitang umalis at manirahan sa hawaii, namatay.
not only are these so-called facts limited, they are practically broad facts as well. what do i mean, right? broad in the sense na hindi naman binanggit halimbawa ang detalye o uri man ng presidency nya.
halimbawa: marcos was a dictator during his presidency. to me, this isn't a fact. this is, at best, a majority opinion -- perhaps, at most, just a popular opinion. again, not fact. personally, naniniwala akong kahit pa lahat ng tao sa buong mundo at lahat ng libro, magasin, peryodiko at anopamang sulatin ang ilathala ang magsabi na "diktador" si marcos ay hindi mangangahulugang iyon na ang katotohanan o katiyakan o fact.
you may all disagree with me, of course, but you would all just be giving your opinion regarding my opinion. and besides, as stated, sample lang yan.
my point? wikileaks, encyclopedias, other books and websites may contain several claims and stories. but that would be all they would or could be -- claims and stories -- until or unless their veracity could be proven.
in discussions like this, i expect opinions -- and stories even -- with some facts helping along the way.
extreme or overly expressed vehemence over unverified stories and claims, written or said by whomever, wherever tend to overwhelm and encumber my teeny brain and teenier attention span. relax lang mga dude. mahirap at magulong pagtalunan ang facts kung hindi science at math. mahirap maging exact lalo na at history ang topic.