The True Color Ferdinand Marcos

[Prime™]

Dimmu don't take this the wrong way ano, I'm sure may knowledge ka sa ibang bagay. May mga post ka nga sa ibang thread na tugma din sa pagkaintindi ko.

I was about to withdraw from this thread because it's becoming silly.

In no way I am attacking you personally but I couldn't help but respond when you insulted my intelligence by asking me if personal knowledge ko ba ito in a condescending manner.

Do you even realize how utterly asinine and ridiculous your post sounds right now?Personal knowledge? Why my friend, lahat ba ng pinag popost mo dito eh personal knowledge mo?

Meron kang thread if I remember correctly about church corruption etc. Why? Ikaw ba nangolekta ng pera? How about your thread na mark of the beast, bakit may marka ka na? Minarkahan ka na ba personally?  I suppose ang kulay ng buhay mo kung lahat ng pinag popost mo dito eh personal knowledge mo.

Pag sayo nanggaling eh fact, pero pag sa iba eh personal opinion?

You best be careful with your old style tactics, hindi sa lahat uubra yan.

Besides, I was reading the thread and though Yana and I do not see eye to eye when it comes to the ideology of communism, I do admire her knowledge. Eh ikaw panay ka google and copy paste. Do you even know what you're talking about?

Lahat naman tayo can go to google and find articles written by some clown to justify our position. Ang pinag uusapan dito is our own very understanding of history. Hindi our own personal bias and agenda.

She posted an article for you to read pero you quickly shot it down, ni hindi mo kamo binasa whilst we gave you the courtesy of reading and understanding what you had to say.

Meron nag reply dito na pro marcos if tama pagka alala ko he said matalino siya and na impluwensiyahan lang, pero ambilis mo tawagin ignorant just because taliwas sa idea mong noynoy ass kissing. Really pal?

Meron isa, personal knowledge nya nung martial law na he felt safer, what did you do? You also shot it down. Aba, may penchant karin pala sa diktaduria ano?

You're being intellectually dishonest. And you're just talking for the sake of talking. Forum ito parekoy, exchange dapat ito ng idea. Kahit naman ako tinatanggap ko pag meron akong hindi alam, pero to scour the internet and look for something that will substantiate my ludicrous claims? Sounds like mental masturbation to me. Isn't that counter-productive kung ang gusto mo eh fair and meaningful discussion?

Anyway good luck with your "open minded post" and your crusade to "enlighten" the next generation. You're pedantry is amusing.

To Yanna: of course we will participate sa thread, basta we find it interesting and may natututunan din kami sa discussion. I only know of a handful of people who have even heard of Assange and his plight. I'm still partial to what his real goal is. Some points to him as a freedom fighter, pero some as a disinformation agent. Anyway good job. See you around kiddo.



Edit: Spelling error.

[Dimmu Borgir]

To end this debate.. Ito lang yung simpleng reason ko na ipinagpipilitan ko:

"You’re entitled to your own opinions but you’re not entitled to your own facts. "


Explanation: It means that facts are supported by evidence and agreed upon by the mass population. Opinions obviously don't require evidence. A person does not have to believe humans are the cause of global warming, but it is a fact that global warming is in large part caused by human-related activity.

Dun sa una kong post about Marcos para sa akin eh facts yun kasi biography nya yun at makikita mo rin naman yun sa mga articles/ books etc..

Economy during Marcos is a facts also since ito naman talaga yung data.

Sa BNPP, is a fact also for me..

Nagkagulo lang tau about CIA na for me is pure opinion since wala namang data na nagsusupport nun or evidence man lang..

Kapareho din yun ng sinasabi ng iba na si marcos ang nagpapatay kay Ninoy..

It's pure analysis & opinion..

So using my argument, tama ka sa opinyon mo pero wag mong sabihin sa akin na yun na ang totoo dahil hindi yun ang facts...

Di naman napatunayan na CIA nga ang nasa likod ng pagpapatalsik kay Makoy..

@Sir Primus, dun pa lang sa una, sinasabi ko na di ko personal opinion ang mga argumento ko dito.. Article ito from different sources..

Clear ito sa una pa lang.

Don't bring the topic about communism since magkaiba naman sila. Dun eh personal opinion ang sinasabi ko dito eh hindi..

You're being intellectually dishonest. And you're just talking for the sake of talking. Forum ito parekoy, exchange dapat ito ng idea. Kahit naman ako tinatanggap ko pag meron akong hindi alam, pero to scour the internet and look for something that will substantiate my ludicrous claims?

Again my reasoning about facts and opinion will speak for itself... 

Meron nag reply dito na pro marcos if tama pagka alala ko he said matalino siya and na impluwensiyahan lang, pero ambilis mo tawagin ignorant just because taliwas sa idea mong noynoy ass kissing. Really pal?

I am not pro Noynoy. Magkontra ka lang kay marcos, pro aquino ka na, i can't understand this reasoning and i'm not expected na makikita ko rin ito sayo. Matalino sya, it's a fact pero yung naimpluwensyahan sya, i strongly disagree...

[marmaim]

dimmu -- ikaw na rin ang nagsabi na we are all entitled to our own opinions but we are not entitled to our own facts. to say that facts are based on evidence and the agreement of the masses is just wrong. remember galileo please.
also, facts can, may and have been twisted throughout history to suit or justify many acts and situations. imagine de-emphasizing marcos' culpability in ninoy's assassination and then proving doubtlessly that somebody else was responsible -- pano na ang edsa? pano na ang pagupo ni cory?
eto pa. if we are to believe everything we've heard and seen in movies and books about the cia and other james bond-like agency people, would not the absence of evidence be evidence as well?
im not claiming anything here except that your determination of facts is wrong. the opinion or concurrence of the masses is not necessary.
should every person in the planet ever come to believe that the sun is black and cold with the evidence of night, would the sun even blink?

[Prime™]

To end this debate.. Ito lang yung simpleng reason ko na ipinagpipilitan ko:

"You’re entitled to your own opinions but you’re not entitled to your own facts. "


Explanation: It means that facts are supported by evidence and agreed upon by the mass population. Opinions obviously don't require evidence. A person does not have to believe humans are the cause of global warming, but it is a fact that global warming is in large part caused by human-related activity.

Dun sa una kong post about Marcos para sa akin eh facts yun kasi biography nya yun at makikita mo rin naman yun sa mga articles/ books etc..

Economy during Marcos is a facts also since ito naman talaga yung data.

Sa BNPP, is a fact also for me..

Nagkagulo lang tau about CIA na for me is pure opinion since wala namang data na nagsusupport nun or evidence man lang..

Kapareho din yun ng sinasabi ng iba na si marcos ang nagpapatay kay Ninoy..

It's pure analysis & opinion..

So using my argument, tama ka sa opinyon mo pero wag mong sabihin sa akin na yun na ang totoo dahil hindi yun ang facts...

Di naman napatunayan na CIA nga ang nasa likod ng pagpapatalsik kay Makoy..

@Sir Primus, dun pa lang sa una, sinasabi ko na di ko personal opinion ang mga argumento ko dito.. Article ito from different sources..

Clear ito sa una pa lang.

Don't bring the topic about communism since magkaiba naman sila. Dun eh personal opinion ang sinasabi ko dito eh hindi..

You're being intellectually dishonest. And you're just talking for the sake of talking. Forum ito parekoy, exchange dapat ito ng idea. Kahit naman ako tinatanggap ko pag meron akong hindi alam, pero to scour the internet and look for something that will substantiate my ludicrous claims?

Again my reasoning about facts and opinion will speak for itself... 

Meron nag reply dito na pro marcos if tama pagka alala ko he said matalino siya and na impluwensiyahan lang, pero ambilis mo tawagin ignorant just because taliwas sa idea mong noynoy ass kissing. Really pal?

I am not pro Noynoy. Magkontra ka lang kay marcos, pro aquino ka na, i can't understand this reasoning and i'm not expected na makikita ko rin ito sayo. Matalino sya, it's a fact pero yung naimpluwensyahan sya, i strongly disagree...

Fair enough. It is not my intention na hiyain ka or make you look bad. That is not my way.

I also dislike those pompous pedants and their idiotic fans anyway. We are all friends here. I was about to walk away from this thread and let you have your field day but I was just surprised when you asked if I had personal experience about it in what sounds like a condescending manner.

I felt the question was unfair and does not add to the discussion. After all we are just students of history, not (at least not yet) a participant in it.

You can be pro Noynoy or not it's your call and I respect that.

I may not agree with what you have to say but I would rather you have the right to say it. To repeat from my tounge the words of Voltaire.

On a side note, I also don't think there is anyone else to blame pag dating sa kurakot ni apo andy. Meron talaga siyang kalokohan no doubt about it. Na aannoy lang ako pag ibinibintang kay marcos lahat ng kahirapan ng pilipinas, and ginagawang palusot ng mga incompetent, and sometimes equally corrupt oh mas malala pa na administrations.

Ang mga tao naman binibili ng binibili. Kaya wala ng pagbabago. Tapos mag rereklamo bakit mahirap ang bansa. Eh binuto mo eh? Nag padala ka sa sayaw at kindat eh.   

Anyway there will be threads where we will be on the same side, meron din on the opposite. It doesn't matter as long as we all walk away from it civil and with an increased understanding or learning. There are no winners or losers here. Anyone who thinks that way have much to room to grow. See you around my friend.

[Dimmu Borgir]

sir, medyo di ako nakarelate dito..
 

dimmu -- ikaw na rin ang nagsabi na we are all entitled to our own opinions but we are not entitled to our own facts. to say that facts are based on evidence and the agreement of the masses is just wrong. remember galileo please.
also, facts can, may and have been twisted throughout history to suit or justify many acts and situations. imagine de-emphasizing marcos' culpability in ninoy's assassination and then proving doubtlessly that somebody else was responsible -- pano na ang edsa? pano na ang pagupo ni cory?
eto pa. if we are to believe everything we've heard and seen in movies and books about the cia and other james bond-like agency people, would not the absence of evidence be evidence as well?
im not claiming anything here except that your determination of facts is wrong. the opinion or concurrence of the masses is not necessary.
should every person in the planet ever come to believe that the sun is black and cold with the evidence of night, would the sun even blink?

[Dimmu Borgir]

@Primus,

Corruption is a 2 way street. Totoo may kasalanan si Makoy pero di naman lahat kasalanan niya. Tayo rin may parte din tayo. At lalo na yung mga elected leaders natin.

Our laws have so many flaws kaya wala na tayong makuhang leader na as intelligent ni Makoy pero malinis ang hangarin katulad ni Cory.

Kung si Marcos ay umalis at di nag declare ng Martial Law, siya ay masasabi kong isa sa the best president ng bansa.

Hindi to nangyari at nakakalungkot isipin na after ng mga ginawa niya eh ginoglorify ng iba si Marcos at binabaliktad ang history.. I will not react kung totoo yung mga article pero karamihan eh misleading..

Im not pro or anti. I'm for the truth. The truth shall prevail.

Ok see you on Creation or Evolution Thread...

 
   

[marmaim]

sir, medyo di ako nakarelate dito..
 

i know. and that is my point.

[Dimmu Borgir]

mas lalo akong di nakarelate dito..

ano ba sir yung sinasabi mo para masagot kita..

di ko talaga gets yung unang comment mo..

sensya ka na..

i know. and that is my point.

[marmaim]

mas lalo akong di nakarelate dito..

ano ba sir yung sinasabi mo para masagot kita..

di ko talaga gets yung unang comment mo..

sensya ka na..

facts are facts po regardless of whether anyone or everyone agrees, accepts, believes or not.
fact: marcos was the president of the philippines. this is a true and undeniable fact not because we all know it, believe it, accept it or agree to it being a fact or the truth. this fact is not subject to a person's or people's whim or will.
sabi mo kasi ebidensya at pagtanggap ng nakararaming tao ang batayan ng katotohanan o facts. i mentioned galileo kasi he was condemned by the catholic church. at that time, the mass population would have agreed with the catholic church rather than with galileo who stated that the planets revolved around the sun. mali po ang simbahan kahit pa naniwala ang karamihan o lahat ng mga tao sa sinabi ng simbahan noon. sa totoo lang din naman, kahit pa naniwala at kumampi ang lahat ng mga tao kay galileo imbes na sa simbahan, hindi pa rin makakaapekto iyon sa katotohanan na umiikot ang mundo sa araw and not the other way around.
ulit: walang kinalaman, hindi sukatan at hindi panimbang ang paniniwala ng kahit gaano pa karaming tao sa pagtukoy ng katotohanan o fact.
i feel like ive mentally masturbated. repeating myself is exhausting hehehehe

[Dimmu Borgir]

"You’re entitled to your own opinions but you’re not entitled to your own facts."

Dito ko ibabase ang paliwanag ko..

may opinyon kasi tayong tinatawag. Ngayon, ano bang pagkakaiba ng opinyon sa katotohanan?

Ang opinyon eh yung palagay mo lang na di mo kailangang suportahan ng ebidensya o sabihin ng nakararami.

Samantalang yung facts eh ito yung totoo na suportado ng ebidensya at sinasabi ng nakararami.

Hal: para sa akin, kulay pink ang langit. tama ako dahil opinyon ko ito para di ko pwedeng sabihin na ito ang totoo dahil alam natin na hindi pink ang langit..

Tumama lang ako dahil sabi ko opinyon ko ito. Pero pag sinabi kong katotohanan na pink ang langit, mali na ako.

Correct me if im wrong.. Noon kasing panahon ni Galileo, hindi pa established facts na bilog ang mundo, pinagtatalunan pa lang ito.  Ganundin yun planets revolved around the sun..

pag ganun yung situation di mo ito magagamit kasi established facts ang pinag uusapan dito hindi yung iniestablish pa lang na fact..

[marmaim]

would you please give another example?
i am trying to determine how to respond. yung halimbawang "pink ang langit" to me is a bit ridiculous. for all we know eh pisikal palang issue yan -- color-blind halimbawa. kung ganon eh tama talaga sya para sa sarili nya. hindi po opinyon iyon kundi physical condition. to use the "pink ang langit" example and then justify it by claiming it as an opinion just isn't right. please give another example para matantya ko what you actually want to convey.
physical evidence, eye witness testimony, anecdotes, rumors, claims and stories heard, seen or read about help people give "informed" opinions. thinking or accepting claims, conjecture and rumors as possible or believable does not mean we create our own facts.
stating anything just for the heck of it and then cowering under the words "in my opinion" is shallow and juvenile -- perhaps even empty-headed. that is my opinion, at least.
regarding marcos, what facts are there? like i said earlier, puno ang buhay at pamumuno nya ng kuwestyon at spekulasyon. i am quite sure though that facts we know about marcos isn't or shouldnt be based on the opinion of the masses.
again: a fact is a fact regardless of how many people believe or agree with it. further, any evidence would only support a fact and not create it.

[Dimmu Borgir]

In general ito..

para sa akin, kuwadrado ang bola. tama ako dahil opinyon ko ito pero di ko pwedeng ipagpilitan na ito ang totoo dahil alam naman natin base sa bola mismo (ebidensya) at sa mga nakakakita, nakakahawak nito (pinangkasunduan ng mga tao) na hindi kuwadrado ang bola.. ito ay bilog..

"You’re entitled to your own opinions but you’re not entitled to your own facts."

hope u get it..

would you please give another example?
i am trying to determine how to respond. yung halimbawang "pink ang langit" to me is a bit ridiculous. for all we know eh pisikal palang issue yan -- color-blind halimbawa. kung ganon eh tama talaga sya para sa sarili nya. hindi po opinyon iyon kundi physical condition. to use the "pink ang langit" example and then justify it by claiming it as an opinion just isn't right. please give another example para matantya ko what you actually want to convey.
physical evidence, eye witness testimony, anecdotes, rumors, claims and stories heard, seen or read about help people give "informed" opinions. thinking or accepting claims, conjecture and rumors as possible or believable does not mean we create our own facts.
stating anything just for the heck of it and then cowering under the words "in my opinion" is shallow and juvenile -- perhaps even empty-headed. that is my opinion, at least.
regarding marcos, what facts are there? like i said earlier, puno ang buhay at pamumuno nya ng kuwestyon at spekulasyon. i am quite sure though that facts we know about marcos isn't or shouldnt be based on the opinion of the masses.
again: a fact is a fact regardless of how many people believe or agree with it. further, any evidence would only support a fact and not create it.

[yummyyana23]

In general ito..

para sa akin, kuwadrado ang bola. tama ako dahil opinyon ko ito pero di ko pwedeng ipagpilitan na ito ang totoo dahil alam naman natin base sa bola mismo (ebidensya) at sa mga nakakakita, nakakahawak nito (pinangkasunduan ng mga tao) na hindi kuwadrado ang bola.. ito ay bilog..

"You’re entitled to your own opinions but you’re not entitled to your own facts."

hope u get it..

pakiayos nga sir ang logic mo, nahihiya na ako para sa iyo..parang di ka nakakuha or pumasa sa logic class mo nung college. omg..

you're always hiding behind the bush..puro ka palusot eh inconsistent na nga line of reasoning mo. pambihira di ka na naka-alis sa opinion-fact na yan ah. di mo narerealize na relative yan pareho. what matters most is how you reason out or substantiate it.

Sige gamitin natin sa topic na sinimulan mo para maisara na ito totally at matigil na rin ang kahangalan dito, if ever the US really love Makoy's ass then bakit sya sinipa? sige isasagot mo kasi dun sa dinami daming mga kamalian na ginawa nya..or kasi dahil nagsawa na ang mga pinoy sa mga mali nya.. Pero sa analysis ng mga historyador natin, Agoncillo, Constantino and Saulo pag ang isang pangulo natin ay hindi suportado ng mga Kano, eh babagsak o maalis ito.. E. Aguinaldo being a revolutionary and former US ally and turned anti-US President, former President Carlos Garcia one term lang for his Filipino First Policy, Macapagal , one term lang din for his Nationalist stance, then you have Makoy during his lupus years, and lastly was Erap for his populist or pro masses policies.

Ok provided that this is an opinion, using hypothetical proposition sa logic, or way of reasoning, kung walang kinalaman ang US sa pagpaalis sa kanila bakit sila napaalis?

Ok lets use the same parameter sa ibang Filipino presidents:Bakit sila Quezon, Osmena, Roxas, Quirino, Aquino, Ramos, Gloria and PNOy bakit hindi napaalis? i believe you'll have tons of sophisticated answers that requires dots and lines to connect.

But simply read and go back to their policies and you'll see that the very common trend is always protecting the US interests from the MBA treaty of 1947, Laurel Langley Agreement, Money Laundering Act up to the VFA.

What I'm trying to show you is this is a hypothetical - conditional proposition. Question is this a fact or opinion? Which ever is the answer, the reasoning for sure is valid and that makes it a somehow truthful.     

"Entitled to your own opinions but not your own facts?" Perhaps only patients in a mental asylum would agree to that. Well if i may add, i wouldn't wish to be a part nor be entitled to someone's ignorance especially if it sucks big time.

Geeesh.. i've never seen a line of reasoning which borders on bigotry and inanity.

Please organize your thoughts well. lintik napapaghalataan ka talaga sir..pag sa iba ang posters dito opinion lang pero pag sa iyo fact? Nahiya naman ako sir para sa iyo. Your opinions are facts? And other people's insights even if they were already substantiated and well informed coupled with facts remains an opinion? What a double standard. This a complete mockery and debasement of what forums shouldn't become. 

Pagamit gamit ka pa ng sinabi ng teacher mo, but you yourself violated it's context, shame on that! And please, enough of trying to redefine terms nagmumukha ka lang lalong irrelevant sa discussions na sinimulan mo.


Down with bigotry and idiocy! Makakabaog ng isip ng mga tao yan. 


P.S. - Basahin mo na lang kahit mga articles ni Renato Constantino about US imperialism para in greater picture makita mo yung relasyon ng mga kinokontra mo.

[Tonying Bayawak]

The thing i wonder is how did he get so darn brilliant, evil or good.

[Dimmu Borgir]

Ikaw ang matigas ang ulo at di nakakaintindi. It's very illogical na sarili mong analysis and conclusion ang ginagamit mo tapos yun na ang sasabihin mong tama..

Uulitin ko, the fact na di naman napatunayan na CIA nga ang nagpatalsik kay marcos..

The fact na di rin napatunayan na si Makoy ang nagpapatay kay Ninoy..

It will remain na opinion/haka haka/ kuro kuro lang ito otherwise magiging facts ito kung napatunayan.


Your're insisting about CIA samantalang hindi naman yun ang main topic dito. Ang post ko sa taas eh biography and Economy during Marcos, yung ang sinasabi kong facts sayo, ngayon kung may tanong ka dun, dun mo ibase ang tanong..

Tinatanong mo sa akin porke sabi ko sa wikileaks galing, pero binasa mo ba yung post ko? yung laman ng post ko ang importante dito. Ngayon kung may tanong ka dun, yun ang pagtalunan natin..

Hindi yung gagawa ka ng kwento tapos pipilitin mo akong maniwala sayo..

"Entitled to your own opinions but not your own facts?" Perhaps only patients in a mental asylum would agree to that. Well if i may add, i wouldn't wish to be a part nor be entitled to someone's ignorance especially if it sucks big time.

Sa sobrang unreasonable mo, personal na ata ang ginagawa mo.. But i still respect you because I know it is a universal human vulnerability that we construct our own facts, with the help of like minded people, to support our world views, desires and ambitions.  Sometimes our assumed facts create contradictory and unsustainable opinions and world views.


Sige gamitin natin sa topic na sinimulan mo para maisara na ito totally at matigil na rin ang kahangalan dito, if ever the US really love Makoy's ass then bakit sya sinipa? sige isasagot mo kasi dun sa dinami daming mga kamalian na ginawa nya..or kasi dahil nagsawa na ang mga pinoy sa mga mali nya.. Pero sa analysis ng mga historyador natin, Agoncillo, Constantino and Saulo pag ang isang pangulo natin ay hindi suportado ng mga Kano, eh babagsak o maalis ito.. E. Aguinaldo being a revolutionary and former US ally and turned anti-US President, former President Carlos Garcia one term lang for his Filipino First Policy, Macapagal , one term lang din for his Nationalist stance, then you have Makoy during his lupus years, and lastly was Erap for his populist or pro masses policies.

Ok provided that this is an opinion, using hypothetical proposition sa logic, or way of reasoning, kung walang kinalaman ang US sa pagpaalis sa kanila bakit sila napaalis?